tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post3292100021444080861..comments2023-11-03T06:35:48.003-05:00Comments on Shark and Shepherd: Lies about lyingRick Esenberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07280070509167910367noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-77674381256381845402013-04-11T23:57:24.430-05:002013-04-11T23:57:24.430-05:00Thanks for finally wrіting аbout > "Lies a...Thanks for finally wrіting аbout > "Lies about lying" < Liked it!<br /><br />Here is my weblog :: <a href="http://www.howtobuyandsellcars1.com/" rel="nofollow">howtobuyanԁѕellcaгs1.<br /><br />com</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-14491905531295585872013-02-23T07:22:47.712-06:002013-02-23T07:22:47.712-06:00Rіght here is the pеrfeсt websіte for anyone who r...Rіght here is the pеrfeсt websіte for anyone who reаlly ωants to understanԁ this topic.<br />You realizе so much its almost hard tо аrgue with you (not that I ρersonally <br />ωill need to…HaΗa). You definitely put a brand new spіn on a topic that has been written abοut for а long timе.<br />Wonderful stuff, just exсellent!<br /><br />Feel free to surf to my homepagе ... <a href="http://www.tensunitsforpain.com" rel="nofollow">tens units</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-4252503896760200082009-07-13T09:57:20.002-05:002009-07-13T09:57:20.002-05:00"The same is true of anybody who has secrets ...<i>"The same is true of anybody who has secrets to keep..." Looks clear to me, Clutch.</i><br /><br />It is. What do you suppose "the same" refers to? Look at the actual quote:<br /><br /><i>When a man bids the servant say that he is not at home, <b>common use enables any man of sense to interpret the phrase correctly</b>. When a prisoner pleads "Not guilty" in a court of justice, <b>all concerned understand</b> what is meant. When a statesman, or a doctor, or a lawyer is asked impertinent questions about what he cannot make known without a breach of trust, he simply says, "I don't know", and <b>the assertion is true</b>, it receives the special meaning from the position of the speaker: "I have no communicable knowledge on the point." The same is true of anybody who has secrets to keep...</i><br /><br />You just have to read it to see it. "The assertion is true" precisely because the utterance is short for something true that "any man of sense" will understand. That's why it's not a lie -- because any competent person will recognize that what's being asserted (as opposed to the elliptical sentence uttered) is true. That's "the same" that can be applied more generally. <br /><br />If you think that true assertions accomplished using elliptical statements, whose truth consists in their being recognizably true to any person of sense, are the same as false assertions deliberately constructed to deceive a sensible but malevolent audience, then I can't help you. I assure you, however, that both Augustine and Aquinas would have laughed this out of the room.Clutchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-6100477113519776842009-07-13T09:17:46.946-05:002009-07-13T09:17:46.946-05:00Clutch, I will re-post the pertinent phrase:
The ...Clutch, I will re-post the pertinent phrase:<br /><br /><i>The same is true of </i><b>anybody</b><i> who has secrets to keep, and who is unwarrantably questioned about them. Prudent man only speak about what they should speak about , and what they say should be understood with that reservation.</i><br /><br />"Anybody" who has secrets to keep.<br /><br />Looks clear to me, Clutch.Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-91453900975952423102009-07-13T09:13:31.646-05:002009-07-13T09:13:31.646-05:00Well, clutch, it's up to you to deal with the ...<i>Well, clutch, it's up to you to deal with the SS when it comes for the Jew you are hiding--or the armed rapist seeking your 12-year-old daughter.</i><br /><br />As a non-Catholic, I am spared the need to square my moral intuitions with the writings of Church fathers, authorities, and popes.<br /><br /><i>"...what they say should be understood with that reservation" --which also happens to be the foundation for my initial (albeit ill-phrased) post</i><br /><br />The bit you quote(d) concerns how such demurring speech should be understood by <i>any reasonable person</i> -- for example, a questioner in a legal proceeding who demands an answer that the witness clearly cannot ethically provide. To say "I don't know" in such cases is not deceptive, precisely because everyone ought to understand that it's basically elliptical for "I don't know anything that it's my obligation to tell you."<br /><br />Obviously this is rather different from murderers-at-the-door cases, in which deliberate deception is among the conscious aims of framing the utterance in that way.Clutchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-69357048120262136302009-07-12T12:02:33.189-05:002009-07-12T12:02:33.189-05:00IT said:
"But yeah, "situational ethics,...IT said:<br />"But yeah, "situational ethics," Heaven forefend."<br /><br /><br />More precisely "self defense" would be a better portrayal of protecting ones family by word or by sword.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-79671531589874757312009-07-12T10:05:32.614-05:002009-07-12T10:05:32.614-05:00"the armed rapist seeking your 12-year-old da..."the armed rapist seeking your 12-year-old daughter."<br /><br />The response to which is likely more expeditiously unfettered than by first determining with what variety of Roman Catholic doctrine it best conforms.<br /><br />But yeah, "situational ethics," Heaven forfend.illusory tenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08524761974822871419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-26968122877837516072009-07-12T09:41:43.099-05:002009-07-12T09:41:43.099-05:00Well, clutch, it's up to you to deal with the ...Well, clutch, it's up to you to deal with the SS when it comes for the Jew you are hiding--or the armed rapist seeking your 12-year-old daughter.<br /><br />As for me, I'll take the road afforded in my second excerpt: The same is true of anybody who has secrets to keep, and who is unwarrantably questioned about them. <i>Prudent man only speak about what they should speak about , and what they say should be understood with that reservation</i> --which also happens to be the foundation for my initial (albeit ill-phrased) post.<br /><br />I can do that without a grotesque caricature of "mental reservation."Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-1680519616709922592009-07-11T15:07:16.870-05:002009-07-11T15:07:16.870-05:00Of course I noted and quoted your "IIRC"...Of course I noted and quoted your "IIRC". Why would you doubt this? I simply corrected your (tentative, qualified) conjecture.<br /><br />Thanks for the additional quotations from the CE article, though neither of them really adds to the basic position of Augustinian absolutism (silence or the truth) modified with a somewhat vague notion of consequentialist exceptions.<br /><br />If you're interested in this stuff, I can tell you that that article, while useful as far as it goes, is fairly weak on the late medieval/early Renaissance history of ideas on lying within the Catholic tradition. The author is clearly convinced of the "common opinion", and glosses much interesting literature. Augustine himself covers a lot of subtle ground that the article doesn't mention. It's a very interesting topic that rewards a bit of research.Clutchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-83082715069632703022009-07-11T14:25:25.786-05:002009-07-11T14:25:25.786-05:00Clutch, I'm sure you noticed the "IIRC&qu...Clutch, I'm sure you noticed the "IIRC" qualifier, and I am happy I put that there.<br /><br />On further review:<br /><br /><i>The Scholastics, while accepting the teaching of St. Augustine on the absolute and intrinsic malice of a lie, modified his teaching on the point which we are discussing. It is interesting to read what St. Raymund of Pennafort wrote on the subject in his Summa, published before the middle of the thirteenth century. He says that most doctors agree with St. Augustine, but others say that one should tell a lie in such cases. Then he gives his own opinion, speaking with hesitation and under correction. <b>The owner of the house where the man lies concealed, on being asked whether he is there, should as far as possible say nothing. If silence would be equivalent to betrayal of the secret, then he should turn the question aside by asking another -- How should I know? -- or something of that sort. Or, says St. Raymund, he may make use of an expression with a double meaning, an equivocation such as: Non est hic, id est, Non comedit hic -- or something like that. </b>An infinite number of examples induced him to permit such equivocations, he says. Jacob, Esau, Abraham, Jehu, and the Archangel Gabriel made use of them. Or, he adds, you may say simply that the owner of the house ought to deny that the man is there, and, if his conscience tells him that this is the proper answer to give, then he will not go against his conscience, and so he will not sin. Nor is this direction contrary to what Augustine teaches, for if he gives that answer he will not lie, for he will not speak against his mind (Summa, lib. I, De Mendacio).</i>--Catholic Encyclopedia<br /><br />In addition:<br /><br /><i>When a statesman, or a doctor, or a lawyer is asked impertinent questions about what he cannot make known without a breach of trust, he simply says, "I don't know", and the assertion is true, it receives the special meaning from the position of the speaker: "I have no communicable knowledge on the point." <b>The same is true of anybody who has secrets to keep, and who is unwarrantably questioned about them. Prudent man only speak about what they should speak about , and what they say should be understood with that reservation.</b> Catholic writers call statements like the foregoing mental reservations, and they qualify them as wide mental reservations in order to distinguish them from strict mental reservations. These latter are equivocations whose true sense is determined solely by the mind of the speaker, and by no external circumstances or common usage. They were condemned as lies by the Holy See on 2 March, 1679.</i><br /><br />We are working from the same article, by the way. Thought you'd appreciate the more extensive quotation.<br /><br />All of that, of course, is carefully qualified--as is (now) my initial "IIRC".Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-46367637125466059852009-07-11T09:13:12.467-05:002009-07-11T09:13:12.467-05:00IIRC, the Church has an 'escape route' for...<i>IIRC, the Church has an 'escape route' for "white lies."... She posits that there are some things which are not anybody else's business, and a deception about what is *not* their business is not a deception.</i><br /><br />I have not heard of any Church doctrine to this effect. The longest and most robust tradition in Catholicism, dating back to Augustine's two powerful pieces on the topic, is that lying is never permissible. To this tradition was grafted a significant literature (which took on a particular significance during the Reformations and subsequent persecution of Catholic clergy in some regions) arguing for the permissibility of lies of necessity -- in effect, consequentialist arguments. Even these arguments tended to emphasize the importance of speaking the truth if possible, using ambiguity or implicature rather than direct falsehood to mislead. (As with a hooded Athanasius, accosted by aspiring murderers seeking him, who answers their query about the whereabouts of Athanasius by saying "He is nearby.")<br /><br />The idea that it counts as a white lie simply if the matter is <i>none of the questioner's business</i> would fit very, very poorly with any aspect of this tradition, since it would permit an enormous amount of lying. After all, how much of our communication is premised on the idea that our responses are strictly someone else's business? Much casual conversation obliges some volunteering of information that is not owed ("So, what do you do for a living?"; "What's your favorite team?"; "Are you a golfer?"). It is no wonder that the Church would not adopt a view of lying that would permit lies for non-overriding consequential reasons in these situations.<br /><br />That's not to say that the issue of entitlement to truth has never been raised in the literature on lying. It has, both in secular and Catholic contexts. But the online Catholic Encyclopedia does a nice job of summarizing both the weakness and the marginality of this view in the Catholic context:<br /><br /><i>A recent writer in Paris series, Science et Religion, wishes to add to the common definition some such words as "made to one who has the right to truth." So that a false statement knowingly made to one who has not a right to the truth will not be a lie. This, however, seems to ignore the malice which a lie has in itself, like hypocrisy, and to derive it solely from the social consequence of lying. Most of these writers who attack the common opinion show that they have very imperfectly grasped its true meaning. At any rate they have made little or no impression on the common teaching of the Catholic schools.</i>Clutchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-145461537263690212009-07-10T18:00:17.102-05:002009-07-10T18:00:17.102-05:00Is that one of those Church euphemisms, Padre?
Th...Is that one of those Church euphemisms, Padre?<br /><br />Those darn liberal media <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124716984620819351.html" rel="nofollow">commentators</a>, always picking on Palin!Display Namehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15842340986220388709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-15076693015956457692009-07-10T17:09:28.349-05:002009-07-10T17:09:28.349-05:00You may kiss my ring, Foust.You may kiss my ring, Foust.Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-46739801622630075492009-07-10T15:50:51.765-05:002009-07-10T15:50:51.765-05:00Plato - and Irving Kristol - tell us the Church is...Plato - and Irving Kristol - tell us the Church <i>is</i> a noble lie.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-42742228767528791762009-07-10T15:47:05.615-05:002009-07-10T15:47:05.615-05:00"It depends how closely the other lawyer is p..."It depends how closely the other lawyer is paying attention"<br /><br />Pragmatism vs. principals? <br /><br />At one time not so long ago, Americans could generally depend on other Americans not to screw or stab them in the back. Perhaps the professor is talking about the growing problem of distrust in our country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-12367638066833298392009-07-10T15:38:21.345-05:002009-07-10T15:38:21.345-05:00Thanks for the clarification, Fr. Dad29.
I gues...Thanks for the clarification, Fr. Dad29. <br /><br />I guess we all know what happens when the church posits that there are some things which are not anybody else's business.Display Namehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15842340986220388709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-47708798890911314542009-07-10T14:07:53.864-05:002009-07-10T14:07:53.864-05:00If the fish is chartreuse, you must excuse.If the fish is chartreuse, you must excuse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-83431283207078932412009-07-10T13:21:11.243-05:002009-07-10T13:21:11.243-05:00"If a lawyer knows the real issue of a case b..."If a lawyer knows the real issue of a case but presents a red herring because he knows he cannot win the real issue; isn't that a deception or a lie?"<br /><br />It depends how closely the other lawyer is paying attention.<br /><br />These are fun threads, by the way. If only I could understand what it is Prof. Esenberg is trying to say.illusory tenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08524761974822871419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-81846411500099295392009-07-10T12:00:08.406-05:002009-07-10T12:00:08.406-05:00Mouskateers?Mouskateers?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-17241548287031639402009-07-10T11:49:47.836-05:002009-07-10T11:49:47.836-05:00or are both GB II and BHO fascio-communists? Good...or are both GB II and BHO fascio-communists? Good case for that...<br /><br />I do not think it can logically be disputed that this (these?)is/are the directions we are headed. One economist states that the government owns or controls 1/3 of the economy. Scary to true free marketeers like myself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-43761594251338423192009-07-10T11:31:04.211-05:002009-07-10T11:31:04.211-05:00If a lawyer knows the real issue of a case but pre...If a lawyer knows the real issue of a case but presents a red herring because he knows he cannot win the real issue; isn't that a deception or a lie?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-83092684797837085072009-07-10T11:19:19.481-05:002009-07-10T11:19:19.481-05:00IIRC, the Church has an 'escape route' for...IIRC, the Church has an 'escape route' for "white lies."<br /><br />Suppose that the Brownshirts arrive at your door and ask if you are hiding a Jew. You know full well what will happen to that Jew if you tell the truth, and for that matter, what will happen to you.<br /><br />So you say "No."<br /><br />The Church allows this. She posits that there are some things which are not anybody else's business, and a deception about what is *not* their business is not a deception.<br /><br />One could make a "greater good" argument in the case, too. But that's not the best case.Dad29https://www.blogger.com/profile/08554276286736923821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-28217581349695159792009-07-10T07:01:11.815-05:002009-07-10T07:01:11.815-05:00Foust
Probably H1N1.Foust<br /><br />Probably H1N1.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-30094402344077348842009-07-09T22:02:42.234-05:002009-07-09T22:02:42.234-05:00We can't talk about Palin?
I think a famous...We can't talk about Palin? <br /><br />I think a famous lawyer once said "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the - if he - if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not - that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement... Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."<br /><br />And if we can't talk about lies because it's just too hard to figure out what's true and what's not, can you perhaps explain the funny feeling I get when I see some blogger say something really, really stupid when I know they're undoubtably smarter than that?Display Namehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15842340986220388709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20692053.post-9941961590270497282009-07-09T14:47:05.029-05:002009-07-09T14:47:05.029-05:00Who needs Andrew Sullivan.<a href="http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/political-media/alaska-paper-digs-deeper-into-our-story-about-palins-dissembling/" rel="nofollow">Who needs Andrew Sullivan</a>.illusory tenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08524761974822871419noreply@blogger.com