Monday, November 02, 2009

Not our fairy tale

I knew it was a high risk proposition but we decided to go to yesterday's Packer-Vikings game. It was one of those things that could have gone better.

Brett Favre has certainly got his validation in that he is still an outstanding quarterback. But Aaron Rodgers showed that - today - he is just as good, if not a little better. Favre is making better decisions than he ever did as a Packer but there were very few years (if any) in which he had the supporting cast that he has now. Rodgers could, I suppose, make some decisions more quickly but he matched Favre blow for below without the advantage of a hall of fame running back and a competent offensive line.

But that brings us to Ted Thompson's real sins. It was criminal to go into this season with that offensive line. They played better in the second half (and Rodges may have been making better reads) but they cannot run block and are porous against the pass rush. You cannot build a team today while almost completely abjuring free agency. Give Rodgers time to throw and there are few teams he couldn't pick apart.

But there is more than personnel at work here. Much of offensive line play is coaching. Avoiding penalties is coaching. I think it remains an open question whether moving to the 3-4 was wise with the players this team has.

Whatever the truth of the latter point, I would love to see stats on how long Favre had to throw as compared to Rodgers. I am not sure that Favre was hit until the fourth quarter. He had forever to throw and boulevards for passing lanes. Rodgers was sacked six times and avoided at least that many with his mobility.

The difference in this came was not Brett Favre. It was the offensive lines and Percy Harvin. But Favre is playing at a Pro Bowl level.

43 comments:

Brew City Brawler said...

Nice headline, glad to see you've joined the Rodgers bandwagon, nothing to disagree with here. Please try harder.

jp said...

Monday morning quarterbacking?

Anonymous said...

Who cares about the Packers? Concentrate instead on "Wisconsin's team" -- the Badgers.

downey said...

speaking of not your fairy tale, nice EPIC FAIL today at the Supreme Court, hatemonger!

AnotherTosaVoter said...

I'm sure there will be an update on how the State Supreme Court rarely takes cases directly referred to it.

I hope it's written along the lines of,

"This is not a major setback, and was expected. The next step in our effort to make sure that a group of people do not receive any legal protections, or breaks from tedious legal procedures to make their lives a little simpler, because in our opinion they haven't chosen the right lifestyle, despite the fact that us conservatives often complain about how government makes life difficult, an effort for which I will be paid handsomely without a second thought, is...

Anonymous said...

downey
you are one of those people who assigns the term "hatemonger" to anyone who doesn't agree with you on the issues. You call for "diversity" and "tolerance" but only on your terms. why don't you lead by example and practice those things yourself.
it's you who are the hatemonger.

Anonymous said...

same goes for ATV. things such as this make you feel superior to those who disagree.

Anonymous said...

As a Vikings Fan living in Milwaukee...i love seeing the Vikes beat GB...but for us fans of those who wear the color of royalty (purple), its less about Brett than beating a division rival and going 7-1...all that Brett v. Rogers stuff is your own conflict. I think Rogers has the attributes of a great QB...he hung on to the ball a bit too long at times, but nothing compared to that woeful O-Line and lack of a true running threat. Vikes often protect Brett with 7 players...trusting that he will sling it to a semi-open player if given enough time. ANd yes, just like the Packers super Bowl win in 96, Harvin made more of the difference, just like Des. Howard made Brett a SB winner...and not another Dan Marino...

Rick Esenberg said...

Tosa, you ought to restrain your tendency to get on a moral high horse and say things that your simple world view assumes must be true, but that you don't know.

It is not the position of my clients - at least as expressed in this case and advanced by me - that a group of people "do not receive any legal protections, or breaks from tedious legal procedures to make their lives a little simpler, because in our opinion they haven't chosen the right lifestyle ...." The issue is not "legal protections" but how they are conferred. The concern is not the lifestyles of same sex couples, but the preservation of certain norms and rules governing heterosexual relationships. You may not agree with that argument, but you ought not to attribute to others arguments and attitudes they have not expressed.

And, believe me, I am not paid handsomely. When I took the case, I had no expectation of being paid at all.

AnotherTosaVoter said...

Aside from my assumption that you’re getting paid, nothing I said is factually incorrect.


The state has passed a law that makes life a little easier for committed gays. You’ve voluntarily signed on to an effort to get that repealed. You may not like to think that your efforts, if successful, would have a negative effect on those folks, but it cannot be dismissed anymore than the fact of what happens to a cow before I can enjoy a fat, juicy steak.

Nor do I accept the stated concerns of the people you represent. I’ve seen enough of the rhetoric of those you represent to know your pleasant-sounding justifications are simply the nice side of the same coin. You’re not stupid or delusional enough to actually believe that tripe (at least I hope you're not), so spare me.


I know you will protest, but I have yet to see either you or anyone else explain why granting the same benefits you and I enjoy to a gay couple has anything to do with the norms of heterosexual behavior. I know you’ve continued to state that you believe it’s a sensible argument, or even an argument at all, but your opinion is insufficient evidence.

For instnace,

“Hey honey, I’m going to buy a new motorcycle. There’s plenty of room in the garage to store it.”


“Can’t do that dear, the garage would suffer.”


“Huh? How?”


“It just would. The garage has always had the car in it. Putting a motorcycle in it would change the purpose of the garage. The garage would have a car and a motorcycle.”


“Uh…so what?”


“The garage is for the car”


“But a motorcycle can fit in it too”


“But it shouldn’t. Changing the purpose of a garage would harm the garage. Then the car wouldn't fee comfortable in it.”


“What? HOW?”


“It just would, dear. Our garage is for a car. Putting a motorcycle in there would make it weaker.”


“HOW?!?!?!?!?!”


“I’ve always thought of the garage as containing the car. If you put a motorcycle in it, I would think less of it, and then everyone in the neighborhood would think less of it, and then everyone would tear their garages down.”


“WHAT? WHY? HOW? THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?”


“I’m right. I believe I am right, therefore I am right.”


“The hell with this, I’m going to the bar”.

Seriously, give it a shot. Give me a reason that hetero marriage would suffer other than your belief that it would. You’d be the first in history to do it, so far as I’ve seen.


Thanks.

Rick Esenberg said...

Well, Tosa, I think I've explained my views and there is a quite ample scholarly literature on this including work by proponents of same sex marriage who believe that it will absolutely "deprivilege" the normative status of conjugal marriage and that is a good thing. You don't have to agree but the certainty with which you dismiss what a lot of very intelligent people on both sides of the issue seem to think is at stake ought to cause you to hesitate. But nuance doesn't seem to be your thing.

AnotherTosaVoter said...

Fail. Still no explanation of how allowing gays to marry changes the normative value of marriage for heterosexuals.

If I'm hetero, and it's good for me to marry, and society expects me to, what does it matter if gays can do it too? Why does their ability to also do so change it for me? HOW? Other than because you think so, HOW?

Never seen an explanation. Never seen an explanation attempted. Ever.

The issue has little to do with the intelligence of the participants, since it's almost entirely based on emotion.

I think Andrew Sullivan nails it here.

Which leads to another question, is it true for either you or more...dedicated types like Ms. Appling, that homosexuality must be a choice because your/her version of God could not, according to your belief system, create gay people?

Rick Esenberg said...

Since I don't believe that being gay or lesbian is sinful, I see no reason why God would not "create" gay people. I suspect that there are powerful biological or psychological attributes to homosexuality although I am less sure that there is a binary divison between gay or straight.

I am not going to repeat for you - again - the secular argument against same sex marriage. It has been made - better - by scholars like Robbie George, Gerald Bradley, Chris Wolfe, Maggie Gallagher, Teresa Collett, Helen Alvare, Stanley Kurz (who is an atheist!)and many others. That Andrew Sullivan, when he isn't obsessed with Trig Palin, disagrees doesn't impress me.

AnotherTosaVoter said...

OK, I've done a minimal level of reading of some of the folks you've listed. Granted it's just a small sample but I'd like to think that if there were any substance to the argument it could be made in short articles.

What I saw was not impressive. As best I can tell, and from what I remember of your previous posts, you seem to think that because gays value monogamy less, if their relationships are called "marriage" then heteros might come to also value monogamy less and then marriage won't mean anything (or, more appropriately I think, won't mean what you believe it should mean) because all us heteros will enter into and leave open marriages en masse, furthering the downfall of our society.

It's a variation of the "everyone will turn gay" argument. Instead of turning gay, all us heteros will value monogamy and commitment less and just screw whoever and not take care of our kids. It's weak because it

A> rests on the idea that the behavior of a small percentage of a tiny percentage of the population could change the minds of us heteros,

B> ignores the fact that, to the degree hetero marriage is devolving from your ideal, it's happening organically already in the absence of gay marriage, which ought to tell you that gays don't have much influence on us,

C> is intellectually dishonest in that it's the only public policy issue you folks seem to care much about even though other policies would have a far more profound and positive (according to you, I think) effects on hetero marriage: namely ending no-fault divorce and criminalizing adultery, and

D> is intellectually dishonest because, I believe I've seen you suggest that gay relationships are no "worse" than hetero relationships, which they'd have to be by definition to have a negative effect on hetero relationships if given the same status (i.e. you cannot join two equal variables and expect a negative outcome, one variable would have to be negative).

E> is built on a slippery slope logical fallacy that says we have A , granting B (gay marriage) would lead to C would lead to D would lead to communism and communal child raising, which is bad.

Frankly I think you'd have an intellectually honest case if you said, ok gays, you get to marry because society would benefit by having more gays enjoy the benefits of marriage (stability for couples, less promiscuity, financial interdependence, etc), but because marriage is so important, neither you nor the heteros are allowed to divorce easily nor commit adultery without serious consequences. (Admittedly someone in CA is putting his money where his mouth is.

That's intellectually honest. What's not is your current argument, which says "gee guys your relationships are fine, and I'm not disparaging you, but we heteros are already screwing this thing up, and giving you the same thing would make it even worse. You know, even though I like totally think your relationships are equal to ours, but frankly if we heteros thought of ourselves like you, we'd be worse off. But that's not a slam, seriously. Oh and never mind the woman I'm representing in this deal has called you people evil tools of Satan.

Anyway I doubt this is going to make any difference, and I promise to drop this in the future unless something changes.

But I do have simpler questions for you. Do you really think the sexual revolution will be put back in the bottle? Do you even think it CAN be?

Thanks, Rick.

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